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catsma_97504
07-07-2015, 01:29 PM
I have been lucky enough to acquire a group of Bulgarian Green angels from the shipments received from Raiko last fall. I have a group of 4 Manacupuru crosses (D/+ bg/bg) and 4 Blue crosses (D/+ pb/pb bg/bg).

When these guys were small their fins were dark and they appeared to be what has become known as Bulgarian Seal Points. However, with the passing of time we have learned this was not the case. Currently in the USA we only have access to these crosses. This is evidenced by the loss of dark pigmentation overall as the fish grew and aged.

Those that Raiko shipped over are now pre-breeder size and close to maturing. While some have reported spawns with these fish I am not aware of anyone who is actually raising spawns at this point in time. The group I have has been dropping their tubes for at least a week, but no sparring or pairing action is occurring. But, I suspect that will change soon enough.

Here are a few photos of what I have to work with. Quality is not the greatest, but will keep trying to get better photos to share.

When they first arrived it was quite obvious they didn't have much in the way of dark pigmentation. In fact, only the Manacupuru crosses showed a hint of gray in their fins. While the fish were stressed from shipment none of the body stripes were apparent on the Blue crosses and a slight hint on the Manacupuru crosses.
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc490/catsma_97504/Angels/Bulgarian%20Green/Screenshot%202015-06-14%2013.35.20_zps1n8cgtnm.png

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc490/catsma_97504/Angels/Bulgarian%20Green/Screenshot%202015-06-14%2013.33.21_zps02eggjwy.png

A couple of the Blue Crosses are developing glitter as well (can also see that the stripes appear without black pigment same as would occur in an albino)
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc490/catsma_97504/Angels/Bulgarian%20Green/2015-07-01%2001.18.39_zpsdpzsx8kl.png

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc490/catsma_97504/Angels/Bulgarian%20Green/2015-07-01%2001.24.32_zpsusqg14nw.png

And a few more recent photos where there are visible signs of the stripes
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc490/catsma_97504/Angels/Bulgarian%20Green/2015-07-01%2001.12.42_zpspvrzqmrv.png

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc490/catsma_97504/Angels/Bulgarian%20Green/2015-07-01%2001.08.07_zpsszwld3wg.png

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc490/catsma_97504/Angels/Bulgarian%20Green/2015-07-01%2001.12.23_zpsw9vsbr9s.png

catsma_97504
07-07-2015, 10:52 PM
Here's a video I took of the Bulgarian Green tank last night. There is also a pair of unmated DD Blacks in this tank as I had to get creative to house all my new arrivals. Please ignore my mumblings. My rescue dog is still a bit rattled after all the noises from fireworks and lightening storms.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuXqu8iX7U

catsma_97504
07-10-2015, 01:34 PM
A friend came over with her SLR camera and captured a few great shots of these stunning angels. Thank you Crystal!!


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The glitter guy is a real standout as he is also showing quite a bit of green coloration
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And the suspected honeymooners. I haven't witnessed any courtship behavior, however often find these two together
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catsma_97504
08-04-2015, 12:22 PM
Now that I have a couple pairs spawning thought I would update this thread.

Pair #1 is a mixed, Manacupuru cross with a Blue cross. I currently have wigglers from this pairing that are expected to go free swimming in a couple more days.

Pair #2 is a Blue cross pair where the male is the stunning glitter guy. Their first spawn didn't fair so well as it fungused over and nothing hatched. But there will be more spawns in the future!

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Picture taken August 4, 2015, day 3 of wiggling. The group looks as if they are albino to me.

Who else is working with this new gene?

Mugwump
08-04-2015, 12:40 PM
Looks like things are going well with your BG stock....and sorry for the loses recently. It's a shame that we don't have any pure bg/bg stock to work with.......if so, test crossings could be done for possible verification and adding a new? gene....

keep up the good work.....are you by chance taking any counts of fry variants??

catsma_97504
08-04-2015, 01:08 PM
While what was shipped to the USA were either Blue or Manacupuru crosses couldn't we consider the Manacupuru a Silver genetically? Yes I agree it would have been great to have just bg/bg fish to begin working with. But we can pull it out of our existing stock to work backwards before we can move forward. Not thrilled to have a mixed pair (Blue male, Mana female), but at these early stages I will take what I can get!

Yes, I fully intend to keep track of the fry counts, documenting the parents, taking photos, etc. I am hopeful that my records will help with the TAS efforts to accept this new gene. If there is a preferred format the Standards Committee would like please let me know.

I believe there are other members who are working with this gene as well; however, I have not heard if they have had any breeding success or if they intend to document their breeding efforts and/or share it with TAS for acceptance.

Pterophyllum
08-04-2015, 03:14 PM
The fish shipped to the UK were, I believe, from the same parents as those sent to the states.
so far I've paired just one fish, and disappointingly only have 7 fry from that pairing :-

the male was this fish :-
http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc464/Pscalare/IMG_4134_zpskzozsmmu.jpg

I paired him to a blue clown veil, as I wanted to see if he is one of the pb/pb fish, and to get stripeless & veiltail into my bg gene pool. My suspicion is that these darker bg's with obvious body bands are D/D rather than D/+ and this seems to be borne out, in that the 7 surviving youngsters appear to all be black lace. But with only 7 survivors, and those only a few weeks old, it's obviously too early to draw any firm conclusions.

catsma_97504
08-04-2015, 03:59 PM
I would have to agree that your angel appears to be DD. Good luck with your breeding project!

terrapins
08-04-2015, 10:54 PM
.....couldn't we consider the Manacupuru a Silver genetically? .......

Wild-type without mutations or Silver if it has a gold gene. They look alike.

Danburns
08-05-2015, 09:17 AM
couldn't we consider the Manacupuru a Silver genetically?

I agree. The Manacupurus represent the pure form Bulgarian Green. +/+ - bg/bg. Unless Raiko specifically stated that there are other genes at work, the fish would be considered genetically pure as the Manacupurus have no domestic mutations in their lineage. This is assuming that even though bg/bg came from domestics with other mutations, Raiko performed crosses to wild angels to isolate the Bulgarian Green gene.

catsma_97504
08-05-2015, 11:02 AM
There is also the presence of the Dark gene. According to Raiko's information the parents were D/+ bg/bg with wild Manacupuru blood. If memory serves me correctly the parents were F2s.

Danburns
08-05-2015, 01:47 PM
I see, so a pairing of D/+ - bg/bg will produce the pure +/+ - bg/bg (Bulgarian Green Silver??), one generation away is not too bad. It is still a delay though.

catsma_97504
08-05-2015, 02:24 PM
Yes, a delay of 1 generation. And as the presence of the Dark gene is easily identified when young, it shouldn't be a problem. I just need to figure out which Manacupuru crosses are male.

Danburns
08-05-2015, 02:33 PM
Hopefully they will let you know when they are accepted by the female. Spawning Done Naturally, lol. :) It would even be better if the best male and female paired up on their own. This scenario rarely works in my tanks.

terrapins
08-06-2015, 12:03 PM
I agree. The Manacupurus represent the pure form Bulgarian Green. +/+ - bg/bg. Unless Raiko specifically stated that there are other genes at work, the fish would be considered genetically pure as the Manacupurus have no domestic mutations in their lineage. This is assuming that even though bg/bg came from domestics with other mutations, Raiko performed crosses to wild angels to isolate the Bulgarian Green gene.

The question is is do solid black fins automatically occur or does it require in-breeding then line breeding to get un-striated 100% black in a lineage of Raiko's fish that was outcrossed. Furthermore, does the feature arise out of a synergy between various genes? If it does, crossing it with a wild-type may strip it into its constituent genes which in turn will require more generations to get the feature back.

A good example of this is outcrossing an ultra-high color coverage Koi with a wild-type will produce goldmarble ghosts. Re-combining the stripeless recessive into double dose will require 2 generations subsequent to the initial F0 cross and another 2 to 3 to get color coverage, color-depth, and color hue to the ideal phenotypic characteristics. In otherwords, even after you get the Koi genotype back in the second generation, the phenotypic features will not automatically occur in their ideal form unless you specifically put in major selection effort to bring those features back.

Danburns
08-06-2015, 06:31 PM
The question is is do solid black fins automatically occur or does it require in-breeding then line breeding to get un-striated 100% black in a lineage of Raiko's fish that was outcrossed.

I suspect the black fins come from the dark gene. I'm not keyed in on what has been showing up in tanks of those breeding them so I could be wrong on that suspicion.

catsma_97504
08-06-2015, 11:24 PM
I suspect the black fins come from the dark gene. I'm not keyed in on what has been showing up in tanks of those breeding them so I could be wrong on that suspicion.

You are correct Dan. A straight bg/bg fish is a light green based on the photos and videos Raiko has shared.

terrapins
08-09-2015, 03:38 PM
So there's a difference between a bulgarian green and a bulgarian seal point; I thought they were the same.

Pterophyllum
08-09-2015, 04:55 PM
Bulgarian green is the gene bg.
Bulgarian seal point is a phenotype, D/* - bg/bg

* can be +, g or Gm.

some combinations of D/* - bg/bg can show faint or strong black banding, for example D/D - bg/bg which tend to have a dirty brown appearance with slightly faded black bands. Despite my description, I think these are rather attractive.

The original "BSP's" were D/g - S/+ - bg/bg or D/Gm - S/+ - bg/bg. I suspect D/+ - S/+ - bg/bg will look very similar.

catsma_97504
08-09-2015, 06:15 PM
There is much confusion over phenotypes and genetics where these fish are concerned.

While Raiko has stated a D/+ bg/bg is a BSP, he has also indicated this genetic combo will not hold the dark fin coloration. This is in conflict with the required dark fin and light body per Raiko's description of how his new gene affects phenotype expression with the Dark gene.

Further he has stated that a D/D bg/bg would hold the dark finage and he calls them "True BSP". However, his original photos indicate that when the term Seal Point was suggested those fish were genetically D/g S/+ bg/bg or D/Gm S/+ bg/bg. There is no mention of the Stripeless gene in recent discussions on the bg gene or BSP phenotype expression.

This is very confusing to refer to the phenotypes as BSP or True BSP. And is leading to some heated discussions.

Another point of conflict is with the "New Platinum" as this fish does not carry the gold gene required for labeling as a Platinum type. With the fish I have the "New Platinum" types appear to be light green body with blue fins. However, prior to maturity they did look much like a platinum in coloration.

Through the gene study we will hopefully be able to replicate Raiko's work. Unfortunately he has not been willing to share any information on their detailed history or his breeding records which could help to get the gene accepted. Therefore we will need multiple breeders collecting breeding documentation to submit to the Standards Committee to accurately document and replicate results for acceptance.

terrapins
08-10-2015, 01:15 PM
There is much confusion over phenotypes and genetics where these fish are concerned.

While Raiko has stated a D/+ bg/bg is a BSP, he has also indicated this genetic combo will not hold the dark fin coloration. This is in conflict with the required dark fin and light body per Raiko's description of how his new gene affects phenotype expression with the Dark gene.

Further he has stated that a D/D bg/bg would hold the dark finage and he calls them "True BSP". However, his original photos indicate that when the term Seal Point was suggested those fish were genetically D/g S/+ bg/bg or D/Gm S/+ bg/bg. There is no mention of the Stripeless gene in recent discussions on the bg gene or BSP phenotype expression.

This is very confusing to refer to the phenotypes as BSP or True BSP. And is leading to some heated discussions.

Another point of conflict is with the "New Platinum" as this fish does not carry the gold gene required for labeling as a Platinum type. With the fish I have the "New Platinum" types appear to be light green body with blue fins. However, prior to maturity they did look much like a platinum in coloration.

Through the gene study we will hopefully be able to replicate Raiko's work. Unfortunately he has not been willing to share any information on their detailed history or his breeding records which could help to get the gene accepted. Therefore we will need multiple breeders collecting breeding documentation to submit to the Standards Committee to accurately document and replicate results for acceptance.

Thank you for clarifying, I am behind on "Raiko news" these days and so am blindsided to the fact that there are some new developments (at least from my standpoint). So, for the sake of clarity, can you post a link indicating all these new information from Raiko? If we're going to canonize this gene, best for the majority of members to be familiar now to help clear the way for the eventual acceptance process into our standards.

catsma_97504
08-11-2015, 12:16 AM
Much of this information is pulled from forum posts written in Raiko's native language and through Private Messaging. I will see if I can locate the links again.

TasV
08-11-2015, 05:40 AM
If we're going to canonize this gene

hmmm... thinking it might be a wee bit premature to go there. Maybe if test crosses, such as +/pb x 'bg/bg' , are done and results can be reported in a more scientific manner it would be better ...

catsma_97504
08-11-2015, 10:41 AM
The fish Raiko shipped to the USA last fall are just now starting to mature. Of those who have these fish I am unaware of anyone else breeding them successfully or planning to log breeding results to share with TAS to help get the gene accepted. And with Raiko unwilling to share his information we will need at least one if not two other breeders to confirm results.

In fact your question is one reason why I started this thread. Hoping to identify who has Bulgarian Green Angelfish and who is planning to log and share breeding results.

terrapins
08-12-2015, 01:54 PM
I am evidently working from an outdated premise. He was very receptive to my suggesting that someone from TAS would do the submittal - several years ago. I haven't been following his progress since that time owing to time availability so I'm scratching my head wondering why the turnaround especially now that his fish are available in the US not to mention the fact that TAS' President is actually going hands-on to directly champion his work. Well, if it doesn't happen, it certainly would not be from TAS' lack of effort to get it going/make it happen.

On the otherhand, maybe it's a moot point anyway since, data directly from him or not, TAS would nonetheless still require proof independent of his information; i.e. from TAS member breeders. You know what I mean?

Mugwump
08-12-2015, 03:30 PM
I am evidently working from an outdated premise. He was very receptive to my suggesting that someone from TAS would do the submittal - several years ago. I haven't been following his progress since that time owing to time availability so I'm scratching my head wondering why the turnaround especially now that his fish are available in the US not to mention the fact that TAS' President is actually going hands-on to directly champion his work. Well, if it doesn't happen, it certainly would not be from TAS' lack of effort to get it going/make it happen.

On the otherhand, maybe it's a moot point anyway since, data directly from him or not, TAS would nonetheless still require proof independent of his information; i.e. from TAS member breeders. You know what I mean?


Exactly...it seemed after all the original threads, and discussion, everything ground to a halt as for as getting any stock to work with here in the states....David even offered to bring them in....but it wasn't until later that David ended up striking a deal to buy them....then they came in already crossed....back breeding to get the original BG's may prove a mute process not knowing what he actually did to get those that expressed for him.....seems like a page in the story is missing??.....

catsma_97504
08-15-2015, 11:47 PM
Just to keep this log of sorts current, below are photos of the spawn at 1 week free swimming.
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Mugwump
08-16-2015, 07:51 AM
Sweeeeet....nice pics

catsma_97504
08-16-2015, 09:44 AM
Thanks Jon

terrapins
08-18-2015, 08:32 AM
COOL! I'm excited for you about what F1's you'll see!

catsma_97504
08-18-2015, 11:52 AM
Me too Ted! Not sure if I am seeing things, but I think there is some slight color development. Meaning some look very light, almost white, and others have a gray cast to them. Time will tell if this is true or not. They are only 10 days free swimming, no fin development as yet.

Mugwump
08-18-2015, 03:54 PM
Me too Ted! Not sure if I am seeing things, but I think there is some slight color development. Meaning some look very light, almost white, and others have a gray cast to them. Time will tell if this is true or not. They are only 10 days free swimming, no fin development as yet.


Great.....keep your photo journal going.....good reference :cool:

catsma_97504
08-19-2015, 12:02 AM
Glad you like seeing the photos and my thoughts on these fish. Was afraid it was overkill. But, this is my plan to have a log of sorts to use as part of the documentation for the gene study.

If anyone else is breeding these fish please feel free to share your information as well!!

catsma_97504
08-22-2015, 12:40 PM
2 weeks free swimming. I can see fin development however can't capture it with the camera.

Not sure what is going on, but have dealt with a high degree of losses daily since 10 days free swimming. At first I assumed it was the typical die off that can occur from internal development issues, but now I am not sure. Removed at least a dozen dead this morning and did another water change this morning. As I am also having issues in my 125g tank I suspect my source water is changing from river to spring (annual event for me). Will be testing tap water after it has had time to sit and aerate to confirm if this is the cause or not. But, those that are going strong are showing no signs off trouble. It appears to be the thinner, weaker ones aka those who tend to hang around the sponge filter.....so maybe it is more physical and environmental.

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Capree
08-28-2015, 07:26 PM
I just want to thank you Dena for your efforts in recording, no matter what you're finding. Every little tid-bit is going to help us narrow this down. I say kudos! Keep going, it is appreciated.

catsma_97504
08-31-2015, 04:28 PM
Thank you Leslie! Glad you are finding this amount of detail useful.

Spawn is now 3 weeks free swimming. This last week took a major hit. There are now only about 50 left. No idea if it was a phenotype that died out or if something else. No changes in my water so that wasn't a factor either. Moved the survivors into a 10 gallon tank.

Still can't get a decent photo, but here is what I did get over the weekend.....
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FYI - The same pair spawned again. Very small spawn, but should hatch tomorrow afternoon.

catsma_97504
09-09-2015, 12:30 PM
The fry are now 32 days free swimming. And at 1 month they are not quite pea sized. Never did figure out what went wrong, but there are about 35 survivors in the 10g tank. All fry continue to have light bodies. No indications in any of the survivors of the presence of the Dark gene.

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Month old fry

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Spawn #2: 2 day free swimming

catsma_97504
09-20-2015, 03:51 PM
A few more photos of the older survivors. They are still about pea sized.

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catsma_97504
10-07-2015, 05:47 PM
I am calling the 2nd spawn a loss. My source water is definitely changing and most are not surviving. In fact I've lost many as large as quarter sized over the past couple of weeks. Never experienced so many losses this time of year before!

First spawn is now 2 months old. And I noticed this morning that color changes are happening. Instead of looking like little Gold angels with a green tint there is a distinct color development in the fins in many of them. They are mostly predime sized. Still growing very slowly! Fins are now colored with a copper/grey tone and a olive body or the fins have remained mostly clear with a much lighter body.

Compare the lower right with the rest and you can see the color changes going on. They were all the lighter color until now.
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Horrible photo, but it really shows off their green tones with the flash
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guppy_18
11-10-2015, 08:06 PM
Hello I am new to this forum... I recently acquired some bsp....I have a spawn of bsp x bsp...they doing well swimming and eating g...

catsma_97504
11-12-2015, 08:14 PM
I would love to see photos of your BSP lines.

catsma_97504
11-12-2015, 09:17 PM
Got a few photos of this small group of Bulgarian Green angels. They are 3 months (? I think...my laptop died and I lost all my records :() and are nickel sized. All are developing coppery tones in their dorsal fins, a few have a faint outline of a black/grey coloration and the bodies are the same olive over gold color with a couple of exceptions.

One thing I did note was that 2 of the offspring had the 2 dots at the start of the caudal fin, which I believe is an indication of being pb/pb. Plus these same 2 offspring are more white in coloration, not the olive gold of the masses. I plan on keeping these two to raise to see if my suspicion is correct. If so, this means that the Manacapuru crosses also contain the pb gene which complicates our gene study.

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catsma_97504
11-12-2015, 09:28 PM
Something else I've noticed with the adults is that the dark pigment in their fins comes and goes, similar to how a Zebra can lose the coloration in its stripes. Here are a variety of photos I've gotten of the same 2 Blue Cross pairs......
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aqua.herp
11-22-2015, 06:36 PM
Just wanted to share my Bulgarian seal points.

Green ghost
http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o797/moehrle_s/Angelfish/IMG_20151122_182305_zpscsfoqzua.jpg

Green silver
http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o797/moehrle_s/Angelfish/IMG_20151122_183049_zpsfue8iiz6.jpg

Poss pair
http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o797/moehrle_s/Angelfish/IMG_20151122_183825_zpsskdzhdax.jpg

catsma_97504
11-23-2015, 10:19 PM
Very nice aqua.herp. Have you noticed the dark coloration comes and goes like with a Zebra angel? That's how mine are. One minute dark fins and black stripes and the next they look like an albino cousin.

aqua.herp
11-24-2015, 11:04 AM
Thanks cat, so far (only been about a week) he (guessing male) has stayed just as he appears in the pictures. I'm still a tad confused on the actual genotypes though. So they are both Bulgarian seal point(phenotype) which would be bg/bg, the one is ghost so that's s/+ but with the silver would it be D/+ or +/+ ?

catsma_97504
11-25-2015, 12:32 AM
You are not the only one who is confused!! I have found somewhat contradictory information and talked with others who each have their own opinions. I have seen D/+ bg/bg referred to as Bulgarian Seal Point and D/D bg/bg or D/Gm bg/bg referred to as a "true Bulgarian Seal Point". These terms themselves are leading to the confusion.

As far as I know (breeding may prove otherwise) any fish carrying at least 1 Dark gene with bg/bg may be referred to as a BSP. If there is no Dark gene present then the fish never displays dark finage and the body stripes will be very faint or possess no dark pigments.

One of my frustrations with breeding is that I have a small spawn where the parents were a Manacapuru cross (D/+ bg/bg) and a Blue cross (D/+ pb/pb bg/bg). YET, I have offspring that appear to be D/+ pb/pb bg/bg. This is not possible based on genetic info provided by Raiko. Further, the bodies appear to be olive yellow (or white) with a green cast in the reflection when catching light.

So, sad to say, with the presence of a Philippine Blue gene in fish that shouldn't carry this gene, we are going to have to isolate the bg gene and breed to prove no presence of pb before we can even begin the gene study.

aqua.herp
11-25-2015, 11:07 AM
Interesting. I guess when looking atleaat at my silver i just don't see any dark present? Looking at picks of lace angels D/+ I'm just not seeing the fin characteristics but I guess there is a lot of lacking info so breeding and isolating out the bg is what's needed

catsma_97504
11-25-2015, 01:37 PM
You are correct. In order for this organization to recognize and accept this as a new gene we need to breed and document. And the first step is to isolate the gene to ensure we can identify how it interacts on it's own as well as with other genes. Having fish where the breeder stated the parents were D/+ bg/bg only, and ending up with pb/pb offspring complicates our efforts.

The D/+ bg angels appear to have dark fins until they reach about quart size. Then the dark pigments begin to fade. It is assumed that this is the point where the bg kicks in. But at this point it remains a theory.

If/When you start breeding your bg angels, deep records. Document the parents, work out their genes, and take photos along the way. That is the only way we will gain an understanding of this new gene. And, if you choose to share those records with TAS then it would help with our efforts as well to document it.

aqua.herp
11-27-2015, 08:33 AM
Yes I plan to document extensively to help better understand this new gene and its characteristics. I'm acquiring 2 more greens early next week so I'll post pics for them too.

catsma_97504
01-22-2016, 05:06 PM
Figured it was time I updated this thread......

One thing is for certain. These angels grow as slow, if not slower, than DD Blacks and they are not as hardy as other domestic strains.

The young from the earlier spawns with the Manacapuru BG / Blue BG cross are approaching half dollar size. The few that were lighter that I suspected were Blue BG appear to be in fact Blue BG. The larger ones remain that platinum white tone and are starting to develop their green shades. There are 3 DD Black in the same tank with these Bulgarian Greens that are the same age.
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The Blue BG adults are as green as ever. Just like the Philippine Blue the flash picks up this coloring, although you can definitely see the green tones just by looking at them as well. I have 2 pairs of Blue BGs, and of the 4 fish only 1 retained its dark stripes. Based on feedback from others and certain assumptions, this one is believed to be D/+ pb/pb bg/bg where the others are only pb/pb bg/bg.
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I currently have a couple of spawns from the pb/pb bg/bg pair. One spawn is close to pea sized and the other is less than a week free swimming. Due to the loss of one of the Manacapuru crosses I have a female paired with a DD Black Pearscale male. Their first spawn should go free swimming tomorrow. I also have 2 Manacapuru BG males that are currently unpaired at this time.

catsma_97504
03-03-2016, 03:28 PM
Another update......

I ended up with 35 in that Manacapuru BG / Blue BG spawn. Of the survivors 11 appeared to be more platinum in appearance and even had the indicators of being pb/pb. I have kept 5 from this spawn to grow out, one of which are the platinum toned ones. All other offspring had the expected gold tones of the Manacapuru parent. So now I am thinking that the Manacapuru BGs may carry pb. Hope not all of them do as this would greatly complicate any solid gene study.

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catsma_97504
03-03-2016, 03:38 PM
I also have a few spawns from a Blue BG pair. But no photos as yet. So, that will have to wait a little while. These spawns are peas sized and dime sized. What I find most interesting with these spawns, while both parents are Blue BG I am seeing a mix of platinum white and gold toned offspring. So, maybe there are gold genes? I really don't know what to think about this development.

And a new pairing.....DD Black Pearlscale and Manacapuru BG. This spawn is a little over a month and pea sized. I have 60 in this spawn. Counted them today while moving to a larger tank. And they all look like carbon copies of each other. This group is suspected of being D/+ +/p +/bg, but who knows what else may be hidden in the gene pool.

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catsma_97504
03-05-2016, 08:03 PM
Here are a couple photos of the Blue Bulgarian Green angels.....

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Babers
04-07-2016, 06:18 AM
This is a quote from Raiko's post from the other site. He said,"Unlike previous import (AngelfishUSA a year ago), all fish in Joel have dark gene. These fish are the original version of the BSP, which I have shown a few years ago in this forum. They are hybrid black version BSP angelfish. (not D/+ version). These angelfish have darker colored fins (like all hybrid black angelfish, which are darker than D/+ angelfish even without bg/bg gene)." This answers why the 2014 imports lost their colors or has less fin colors.

catsma_97504
04-07-2016, 01:06 PM
Thanks for sharing your info Babers. So much confusion surrounds these fish that it has become increasingly more difficult to gain a solid understanding of their genetics.

The fish I have were supposed to be D/+. Imported as BSP and Platinum BSP; however, after working with them over the past year I do not believe this to be true. One observation I have made in translating Raiko's forum postings on other websites, is that he refers to these fish as "BSP" or "True BSP"; and further indicates that the "True BSP" are the only ones that will retain their darker fins at maturity. After many hours of research I have an idea what is required to create the true BSP that will retain its black fins into maturity. Time will tell.

In the spawns I've raised so far nothing has gone as expected. This is making it even more difficult to document and complete the gene study. We have approached Raiko multiple times and he has been less than cooperative to share documentation or to help work toward accepting this gene. So, we are attempting to work through this gene study flying blind.

Of the BG angels I have, one blue type appears to possibly carry the Dark gene, but no viable spawns to know if this is true yet. And I ended up with 1 female Manacapuru BG who is paired with a DD and 2 Mana BG males. I am hoping to pair these Mana BG males with Manacapuru I have to be able to isolate the BG gene.

With every step forward it feels like I've also taken a few steps backward as nothing has gone as expected. And I am always left scratching my head.

- Every time I do a water change all my bg angels get dark fins, and once they calm down the dark coloration fades. Much like that of a Zebra that can have midnight black stripes one minute and faint light grey the next. At first I thought this was because they were D/+, but now I doubt that assumption is accurate.

- In the Manacapuru BG / Blue BG spawn I had 20% with the white bodies much like the Blue aka "Platinum BSP" types. I shouldn't have gotten a single white bodied type being as this spawn would have been +/pb. So either the Manacapuru BGs carry a pb gene which has been denied or something else unexpected is occurring.

- I also have had a few spawns from a Blue BG pair. The parents are assumed to be pb/pb bg/bg....and the expectation is to have 100% offspring with the white/platinum type bodies. But this isn't happening. There are a few gold toned offspring. I haven't done a final count to work out the percentage of occurrence, but I'd guess it is in the neighborhood of 15-20%.

At this point I have no confidence in the purported genetics of these fish. It is going to take much time to break down and isolate the BG gene in order to do a proper gene study and to gain a better understanding of what to expect with this new gene. And will need as much help as possible from others raising and breeding these fish.

Babers
04-07-2016, 01:49 PM
I do have the capability to produce different BSP variants from Raiko's angels (the ones I just imported). I do have some adults I can work with. Maybe we can compare notes when they start spawning.
Do you have pictures of your BSP when they were still quarter to dollar size? Just want to compare their colors from the same size angels I have right now....to see if there's a similarity/difference. The smaller angels I have do have all dark fins at all times, sometimes darker.
From my import, there is only 1 platinum bsp (was accidentally mixed in with the shipment). That platinum does not have a tint of black at all and no fin changes.

catsma_97504
04-07-2016, 03:03 PM
I did not obtain the fish from David until they were prebreeder sized. So, no photos of my adults when they were quarter sized shipped by Raiko. But David did tell me that when he imported all the fish received had the dark fins; however, began losing their darker coloring between quarter and half dollar size.

Here is one of the first photos taken of the Bulgarian fish I received.....they may have been in my tank a couple of days at this point. I received these fish in June 2015.
349

And below are some photos of them last fall. They developed glitter and their green coloring during this time.

Manacapuru types (supposed to be D/+ bg/bg...can't prove or disprove as yet)

351353

Blue (Platinum) types. The last photo is the pair where I believe the male is D/+

350352354

catsma_97504
04-07-2016, 03:10 PM
Here is a photo taken by David soon after importing in 2014. I believe they were dime to quarter sized....

355

Babers
04-07-2016, 03:35 PM
These angels are almost dollar size...

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/babers1/Bulgrian%20Seal%20Point/DSC00883_zps3mgvqjwg.jpg (http://s1180.photobucket.com/user/babers1/media/Bulgrian%20Seal%20Point/DSC00883_zps3mgvqjwg.jpg.html)

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/babers1/Bulgrian%20Seal%20Point/DSC00874_zpsupidowo2.jpg (http://s1180.photobucket.com/user/babers1/media/Bulgrian%20Seal%20Point/DSC00874_zpsupidowo2.jpg.html)

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/babers1/Bulgrian%20Seal%20Point/DSC00885_zps9djgexj0.jpg (http://s1180.photobucket.com/user/babers1/media/Bulgrian%20Seal%20Point/DSC00885_zps9djgexj0.jpg.html)

Babers
04-07-2016, 04:08 PM
Adult BSP Blushing...

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x402/babers1/Bulgrian%20Seal%20Point/DSC00791_zpsgq9dzqp1.jpg (http://s1180.photobucket.com/user/babers1/media/Bulgrian%20Seal%20Point/DSC00791_zpsgq9dzqp1.jpg.html)

Babers
04-07-2016, 04:38 PM
A couple short videos...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sIBuV408k4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVg90gVZgho

catsma_97504
04-07-2016, 10:19 PM
Yes, your fish obviously carry the Dark gene, unlike mine. Please keep us posted on your breeding success. Would love to include your experience with these fish in our gene study!!

You know, at first I was a bit disappointed not having the Dark gene; but now I feel differently. It will be easier for me to reverse engineer to get down to the bg gene itself then having to peel off all the other genes in the mix that creates the highly sought after Seal Points.

Pterophyllum
04-08-2016, 09:24 AM
On TAF II Raiko stated :-

The fish at Joel are: (D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg) and maybe a small percentage: (D/D - pb/pb - bg/bg).
but he also stated

These fish are the original version of the BSP...

Since the originals didn't have pb/pb do you know which statement is correct?

The 2014 UK shipment was of stock from the same parents as the 2014 US shipment.
So far I've had limited success with these (I suspect this has more to do with issues I've been having rather than with Raiko's fish).

My first pairing was a dark "bg" with a blue ghost veil, I only raised 5 of these, of which I still have 3, these all appear to be very nice pinoys suggesting that the "bg" was D/D - pb/pb - bg/bg.

These two are my latest pairing. This photo was taken a couple of weeks ago, and as you can see they have a reasonable batch of free swimmers.

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc464/Pscalare/IMG_9406_zpseoyvvn3q.jpg
They also had a batch that are a month older and of these just 13 survived. There are a mixture of black (lace) individuals and others which don't carry a dark gene. The difference was apparent even at wriggler stage, and if you look closely in the photo, there are some which are obviously darker than others.
This latest batch are still too small to reliably ID the blues, of the 13 survivors from the older batch, there are 9 blacks (too soon to ID blues) but of the 4 others 3 are blues.
It's not unexpected that the koi father carries pb., but I'll be interested to do an offspring count to work out if the mother is het. or homozygous for the gene.

catsma_97504
04-08-2016, 12:20 PM
Great information!!

I would agree that your bg angel appears to carry a Dark gene with those offspring results.

Unable to address your question over the pb gene in the original fish shipped to the UK and the USA. The information that was shared by Raiko with the 2014 shipment indicated that they were:


Box #1, consisting of 50% Manacapuru offspring, the progeny of Dark Bulgarian Green Parents. Offspring with “bright fins” are genetically (bg/bg), while any with dark fins are either (D/+ – bg/bg) or (D/D – bg/bg)

Box #2 consists of two genotypes, having the mix of Philippine Blue genetics (pb) and Bulgarian Green genetics along with the Dark gene; consisting of (D/+ – pb/pb – bg/bg) or (D/D – pb/pb – bg/bg), and…

Box #3 primarily contained a small amount of the same, with the remainder being (pb/pb – bg/bg)

If these genetics are correct then there should be many in the USA with Seal Points that have kept their dark fins as we've seen in Raiko's photos. But I have yet to confirm this. Further, all Manacapuru BGs are supposed to carry the Dark gene.

Using the above information I have been under the assumption my fish are:

D/+ bg/bg (3 Manacapuru BG)
D/+ pb/pb bg/bg (1 Blue type that has some dark pigment in the stripes and faint in the fins)
pb/pb bg/bg (3 Blue aka Platinum types showing no signs of dark pigmentation)

Babers
04-08-2016, 09:49 PM
So...based on the boxes (if they were the same size as what I received)...I'm just gonna assume....if there were over 300 bsp angels that were imported in 2014, all of them...the dark fins faded?? Or got really light? Has this been verified from people who bought them? It seems like the question being asked to me a lot by people inquiring is... Are these the real BSP? Is the dark fin color gonna stay? Are these bg/bg and not hets? A lot of skepticism...hesitancy...

Babers
04-08-2016, 10:13 PM
"The fish at Joel are: (D/g - pb/pb - bg/bg) and maybe a small percentage: (D/D - pb/pb - bg/bg)."
but he also stated
"These fish are the original version of the BSP..."
Since the originals didn't have pb/pb do you know which statement is correct?



-On the original thread on TAF II (A new ghost variant...) when this angelfish was first introduced, Raiko (post # 256) stated, "Now I have a generation of (D/g - +/pb - +/bg) X (D/g - +/pb - +/bg). It is possible to get D/D - pb/pb - bg/bg in this generation." This was dated Oct 2012. "

I tried re-reading the whole thread but I just got dizzy from it. Anyway, he did imply that he was gonna cross a couple fish to produce the pb/pb bg/bg. I think ( and I'm just guessing) this it what he meant when he said original BSP...when they were still a project for him.

catsma_97504
04-08-2016, 10:14 PM
I could be wrong, but I thought there were 300 per box....but maybe it was 300 fish total. If the genetic info is accurate there has to be someone with adults that kept their dark fins. You might try contacting AngelfishUSA and see if they can confirm that some have dark fins as adults.

The fish I got came from a private tank. And I was informed that they all started out with dark fins...and the fin pigment started to fade by half dollar size. However, as I know one pair of pb/pb bg/bg do not carry the Dark gene I cannot confirm nor deny the shared genetic info is accurate.

Do you have true BSP that will hold the dark fins or the other type referred to as BSP where the dark pigment will fade? Time will tell.

Once my Dark Lace pair off I should be able to determine the difference. The older spawn is about dime size, so gonna take some time. Their genetics are expected to be D/+ +/p +/bg

Babers
04-08-2016, 11:08 PM
Yes...I think that's all we can do. Time will tell.

My boxes only had only a little over 100 fish each. He must have used bigger boxes shipping fish to David.

Babers
04-09-2016, 07:38 PM
Do you have true BSP that will hold the dark fins or the other type referred to as BSP where the dark pigment will fade? Time will tell.


At this point in time....Facts are....all adult/breeder BSP's I have are what you called true BSP that have dark fins. All juveniles that I have, including angels that are almost dollar in size have maintained the dark fins. Once I have angels that are past half dollar in size....I will post some more pictures...

catsma_97504
04-27-2016, 12:11 AM
Here's a short video on the Blue Bulgarian Green offspring. They are nickel to quarter sized for the most part.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHSh-iEbDM0

catsma_97504
05-02-2016, 05:28 PM
Dark Lace offspring from the outcross between the DD Black Pearlscale and Manacapuru Bulgarian Green.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CpuEwwTmOk

Babers
03-05-2020, 09:07 PM
425
Almost 4 years later....These are BSP angels that I’ve bred, except for 1. There are 6 in the tank, 5f and 1m. This was when I was attempting to get a pair. Picture was taken last week of January 2020

Mugwump
03-06-2020, 05:25 PM
Sweet looking bunch....nice job :cool: