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View Full Version : Notch, or not-to-notch? That is the question!



TasV
07-31-2015, 07:53 PM
My platinum angels FINALLY arrived to day and I'm smitten! That blue sheen (two were pearl-scaled and one was normal scaled), is amazing. I am a little disappointed with their heads though. There is a pronounced notch in their nose and don't particularly like this. I much prefer a smoother transition from the mouth and up to the head than a pronounced notch. After all, they are not altums :rolleyes:. So my question is, is the notch a fault in scalares and if so is it one of those traits that gets lost in a breeding line that continually pops up once it is in it or is something that can be bred out relatively easily?

catsma_97504
07-31-2015, 09:28 PM
We'd need to see photos of the fish in question to be able to provide an answer. Had to tell if it is a true notch or something else going on.

TasV
08-01-2015, 11:35 PM
Sorry for the terrible photo, photo... for some reason they were all hiding in a dark back corner behind a rock this afternoon and the ipad could not handle the low light ... this is the biggest 'notch' of the three of them. One looks pretty good (the non-pearl scale) but the two pearl scales are like this. Makes it look more like a beak than a nose and suggests (to me) that not enough careful selection is going on it their breeding.

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catsma_97504
08-02-2015, 09:29 PM
I would not call that a notch. Instead what you are seeing the the shape caused by a bump/hump on the head. While this is not a desired trait there are some breeders who breed for it in hopes of developing a distinctive hump similar to that seen on other cichlids.

TasV
08-04-2015, 01:45 AM
The nuchal hump in cichlids like trimacs, are produced in response to the release of breeding hormones. This fish is pre-spawn size and this 'beak' was present in much smaller fish, too, so I'm not sure it is the beginnings of an actual nuchal hump. It is interesting that you say some people are using this feature to replicate the look of the nuchal hump in angels... I can't imagine why one would think this is a good idea http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/images/smilies/shrug.gif. I think I will just actively select against this trait and be done with it.

Mugwump
08-04-2015, 10:12 AM
The nuchal hump in cichlids like trimacs, are produced in response to the release of breeding hormones. This fish is pre-spawn size and this 'beak' was present in much smaller fish, too, so I'm not sure it is the beginnings of an actual nuchal hump. It is interesting that you say some people are using this feature to replicate the look of the nuchal hump in angels... I can't imagine why one would think this is a good idea http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/images/smilies/shrug.gif. I think I will just actively select against this trait and be done with it.


I'm not a 'hump' angel breeder myself..............that 'flat face' look doesn't look right on a non altum fish, especially without the high altum body being present..

TasV
08-21-2015, 06:41 AM
It seems that as these fish are growing, they are 'growing into' their humpy head a bit and the 'notch' is becoming less pronounced. Could this also be an environmental thing caused by factors such as overcrowding in a commercial breeder's tanks. They were quite thin when I picked them up and now I have had them a few weeks they are starting to fatten up a bit. I wonder if they are depositing fat in their 'snout' region????

terrapins
08-22-2015, 03:15 PM
My platinum angels FINALLY arrived to day and I'm smitten! That blue sheen (two were pearl-scaled and one was normal scaled), is amazing. I am a little disappointed with their heads though. There is a pronounced notch in their nose and don't particularly like this. I much prefer a smoother transition from the mouth and up to the head than a pronounced notch. After all, they are not altums :rolleyes:. So my question is, is the notch a fault in scalares and if so is it one of those traits that gets lost in a breeding line that continually pops up once it is in it or is something that can be bred out relatively easily?

Cranial cichlid humps on adult males go in and out of fashion. They haven't been in vogue for the past 10 years and many cull them or have bred them away from their lineages including myself (and yes, it is genetic). The snout notch's aesthetic value is highly dependent on the angle of its cranium relative to its snout as well as its overall body profile. Those with steep angles (similar to the steepness of an altum's cranium) and in association with high bodies look very elegant but look out of place on bodies that are elongated. Elongated bodies with large eyes are common in young fish but are outgrown as they age. By the time they reach sexual maturity (or a little before it), they would have been normalized.

Those that do not normalize are considered inferior and are usually caused by runting. Most runts catch up in size as they hit sexual maturity but if they've retained a dis-proportionate profile by that time, chances are, it's permanent even if they catch (and most will if in the presence of ideal environmentals). In the majority of cases, runty looking adults are commonly due to poor growing conditions. So long as this is the case and their shape isn't a consequence of genetics, it will not be passed down to future generations.

That said, if your fish is just several months old, chances are its physiological proprotions will normalize so long as you provide ideal environmental conditions. On the otherhand, if your fish is say about 6 months old and still have juvenile features and size, chances are it's permanent.