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Thread: 2nd albino mutation

  1. #1

    2nd albino mutation

    I know many of you are members on the TAF II site, so most will already be aware of this, but it seems appropriate to post here also...

    I'm not the first to report this, but hopefully the accompanying photographs will add weight to my observations.

    When I first saw a photo of what was then being sold as an "albino altum" I suspected that the fish was actually an albino Rio Nanay aka "Peru altum".
    To produce such a fish by crossing a domestic albino with a Nanay, then sibling crossing to get a 50% Nanay albino, then repeat for 2 generations to get a 75% albino Nanay and probably repeat again to get an albino 87.5% Nanay would be a long and labourious process, and I suspect that it wouldn't be until you got to the 87.5% stage that the fish would look like the fish being offered. I wondered why if someone had gone to that trouble with an albino gene they hadn't gone to the trouble of doing the same with other, potentially more interesting genes like Philippine blue, dark etc. I also wondered how they had resisted the temptation to release fish on to the market at intermediate stages 50%, 75%, etc. and I suspected that the reason was that this was an albino mutation that had spontaneously appeared in wild stock, or in a line of fish bred from wild stock. I wondered if it might be a new albino mutation. See this thread on the TAF II forum http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/s...ad.php?t=30871

    I've heard a couple of reports of others crossing an albino "Dantum" with a "normal" albino and getting non-albino offspring, most noticeably a thread on TAF II but the poster only managed to raise one individual, I therefore decided to try the cross for myself.....


    I paired this male albino


    with this albino "Dantum"



    The "Dantum" came from a UK based wholesaler at the end of last year. The male is a fish I bred myself and probably has lots of other genes present like dark, gold, smokey, stripeless, streaked and Philippine blue. His albino gene was almost certainly introduced into my stock with fish obtained from Ken Kennedy in 2010.

    They spawned on 21st July and I pinched the eggs to hatch away from the parents as previous spawns had been eaten around about the point that they were due to hatch.

    they hatched on 23rd


    and as you can see were definitely showing some melanin.

    subsequent developmental photos were taken :-

    24th


    25th


    27th


    Although not yet quite free swimming it's clear that these offspring aren't phenotypically albinos and that therefore the albino gene carried by "Dantum" angels is a new mutation.

    I have suggested that the new gene be known as Type two albino with an abbreviation of a2. I'm open to suggestions as to a suitable phenotype name, but quite like the idea of "Dalbino" which nods towards "Dantum" and "Danziger" whilst avoiding the potential confusion that adopting those two trade names might entail.

    Whilst it's most likely that the new gene is located on a different locus from the "normal" albino gene, there is a theoretical possibility that a fish that was a/a2 could be phenotypically non-albino, so, assuming I'm successful in raising these youngsters, I intend to carry out suitable tests to determine if this is the case. I do not intend to carry out tests for allelism with all the other known genes as I have neither the time, inclination or facilities for such an extensive battery of tests, but I will share the outcome of any further breeding results with these "Dalbinos" on this and other forums.
    Blessed are the cheesemakers!

  2. #2
    This is a study I've tried to get others with Dantum in their tanks to undertake. I too have always known that crossing a standard albino with a Dantum would produce non-albino in the first generation based on the breeding results others have reported.

    Question: How do you plan to determine the albino fish, once produced is a Dantum (a2) verses the known/recognized albino (a1)?

    If others do the same then we may end up with enough documentation to run through the Standards Committee and be able to recognize this alternate form of albinism in angelfish.

    Please keep us posted on your progress and the results of your efforts.

  3. #3
    Hi Catsma,
    Assuming I'm successful in raising the young, I'm intending to do sibling x sibling pairings.
    As noted above, although it's likely that these youngsters are +/a - +/a2, there is a theoretical possibility that they could be a/a2.
    In the former case we should expect a ratio of 43.75:56.25 albino phenotype: non-albino offspring whilst in the later we should expect 50:50, but I'm not convinced, even by counting at the wriggler stage that this will necessarily conclusive. Instead I hope to find albino individuals that can produce albino offspring when paired to both albino types.
    How do you plan to determine the albino fish, once produced is a Dantum (a2) verses the known/recognized albino (a1)?
    I'll cross that bridge if I get there, but I suspect that test crosses may well be necessary.
    Note, the TAS abbreviation for the "original" albino is "a" not "a1" I'd suggest that we stick to that to avoid confusion in the future with articles referring to a and others to a1 some might think that a is different from a1.
    Blessed are the cheesemakers!

  4. #4
    Just a little update to say that most went free swimming last night, and this evening I have a couple of hundred who are keeping together, swimming mid water & definitely feeding. fingers crossed that they continue to thrive.


    Blessed are the cheesemakers!

  5. #5
    I have tried crossing the albino dantum with non albino golden (Albino genes) and the result is all non albino fishes for the f1....yet to breed f1 generation.....

  6. #6
    I myself am in the middle of this project. Though my allotted space for this is not what is like it to be, I am awaiting my first pairing of first gen siblings. They are at 6 months give or take so it should be sooner rather than later. I have just a 100 or so it off a spawn of 6 or 7. Did you notice a higher than normal fatality rate in the fry? I lost half in the first 2 weeks. I'll admit I did not take extra care of the behalf of them being albino but they were still meticulously maintained. Either way I suspect with in a month I should have my first sibling pairing for the coming generation.

  7. #7
    Did you notice a higher than normal fatality rate in the fry? I lost half in the first 2 weeks.
    Sadly I've done far worse.
    48 hours free swimming I discovered that the airline had come off my brine shrimp hatcher, so I gave them a feed of Ocean Nutrition Baby brine shrimp http://www.oceannutrition.eu/product...y-brine-shrimp which I've used before as an emergency stand by without problems. Next morning about 50% were dead. For the next couple of days the remainder seemed to thrive, then I came down to about 90% of the survivors gone. I move the remaining 20 babies to a different small tank in case there were issues with the water in their original aquarium. most of these, once again, seemed to be doing well, but numbers dwindled to 5 which then all died overnight.
    At this stage I'm more inclined to suspect a bacterial or water quality issue rather than an inherent problem with the a/a2 or +/a - +/a2 combination. I've had similar problems with other, unrelated batches recently. in part, I suspect, because I haven't been able to devote as much time as I would like to water changes, etc. recently.
    I will however put the pair back together and try again, but I probably won't tempt fate & will only post my results after the event.
    Blessed are the cheesemakers!

  8. #8
    I'm not sure what caused the quick die off in my batch, the rest are thriving add you say and haven't had any issue since. I try to keep microworms on hand for the instance that my brine hatchery fails. When I started this project I also stated paying with the beyond setup to improve efficiency and hatch out. Needless to say I failed and returned to my typical inverted bottle setup. But not before losing 4 batches.

  9. #9
    Watching this thread with great interest on both sites.

    My back-ups are frozen baby brine shrimp, decap baby brine, 5-50 micron golden pearls and white worms when colony can feed. I soak all of them(which ever one I am using, not mixed) in tank water and then use a turkey baster to 'shoot' into the area, this provides movement for their interest. I do this several times. I notice little if any drop off of the mortality rate.

  10. #10
    TAS Guest
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Pretoria South Africa
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    Hi my name is At I am a fish breeder from South Africa , I am new in this genetic staff . All my live an angel were just an angel , not a "dantum" ???.
    I find this very interesting so forgive me if I will be asking silly questions, firstly I would like to congrats you guys with this forum I think it very good , I would like to hear your opinion on breeding and rearing commercially.

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