Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 23

Thread: Single Albino Wiggler

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by terrapins View Post
    IT would be interesting to see what occurs in your next spawn from this pair.
    I agree. With the amount of skepticism showing up on TAFII I need to be able to prove the male has no albino gene. If the spawn shows no albinos, I will be ok with that, however I wouldn't doubt someone saying that I just dropped in an albino fry in the first spawn.
    If the next spawn shows only one or two albinos that would be better (indicating a crossover), but I anticipate that there will still be doubters.

    The female is filling with eggs and the pair has started picking at the spawn site, maybe a few more days. I also have a clearly marked piece of pvc for them to spawn on, so that should be proof enough that I didn't swap them out. Plenty of photos next time.

    I almost wish I had not even said anything at this point.

  2. #12
    Dan, I don't think there was that much skepticism at much as there were questions, which are to be expected, right? Any new gene gets proven before acceptance, others do crosses, I don't think any of the comments were intended to show doubts about your observations.....and you, yourself stated that scenario was a theory as yet to be chill and get to work, it looks like you may be on to something....good luck..
    Last edited by Mugwump; 05-18-2015 at 04:53 AM.
    He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which.
    - Douglas Adams

  3. #13
    Thanks, Jon,
    But if you would read it again,,, I was never really asked any questions by anyone. I asked how it could have happened and if anyone had seen a crossover at that locus. The immediate response was to suggest how it could not have happened and conjecture on how things must have really happened. Suggestions on something being wrong, too small of a spawn, albino eggs dying off, male must be carrying the recessive. My observations were apparently dismissed as they did not fit the scenario being presented as what they guessed really happened. Rob was the only one to step beyond and finally offer up information on how a crossover occurs.

    I should have known better to post without solid footing. Observation without evidence opens the door to conjecture and doubt. I understand that now. In the future I will be sure to have all my ducks in a row, backed by irrefutable evidence. Not that something like this will ever happen to me again in the future.

    I still do not think that a new gene has surfaced. The albino gene already existed in the het female. I think something happened within a single egg causing a replication of that same albino gene on the second gamete. I'm left with no path to proof.
    No big deal, it is just a fish. I'm just disappointed with myself for opening Pandora's box with everyone watching. A freak event happened. Couldn't have happened to anyone freakier....
    Last edited by Danburns; 05-17-2015 at 08:08 PM.

  4. #14
    Well lots of strange things can happen with spawns....a lone black, finage that appears zebra, etc.....a new/different albino gene does seems bizarre, I agree.....morph's do happen probably more often than we observe too....a 'needle in the haystack'...especially with larger're right, with genetics, your better off presenting with your ducks in a row.....folks don't buy into discoveries, and changes, very fact, it's true on most any takes them out of their comfort zone...
    He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which.
    - Douglas Adams

  5. #15
    I've spent most of the night reading in depth on gene replication in a crossover. I can wrap my head around how this happened now, to my own satisfaction of course. As I expected, it is very unlikely that this is an indication of a new gene. The gene already existed in the het female, only if there had been no albino gene in the parents would it possibly be an indication of something different. This albino will most likely look and interact much the same as any albino. It reads to me that way. Much the same as a Black crossover from GM. The Black gene is just that, a Black gene. Nothing new, nothing different. In the end, there is no avenue to proof that this has happened.
    It is a common response for humans to be reluctant to accept something that appears different from the norm. Attempts to find an explanation that fits their previous experience should be expected. Even discounting or overlooking evidence they have before them.
    I agree that for one person to have something like this occur in their lifetime faces astronomical odd. But I do not think that an actual crossover event is all that uncommon. According to Genetic Algorithm models, the probability of a crossover event (replication) is far more likely to occur than an actual mutation (different gene). The probability of it being recognized when it happens out of all the angelfish hatched in a given time period runs the odds up even higher.
    All in all, it is just a fish. I need to chill and put my mind elsewhere. No good will come from the path I've taken. It is what it is.

  6. #16
    Hi Dan,
    To be fair, I had the advantage of coming to the thread late, so I didn't have to ask the questions that others had before me. The correct, first, answer to the question, "I have got just one albino from a spawn where only the one parent carries an albino gene, how is this possible?"; indeed the correct, first, answer to any bizarre or unexpected result; should always be, "Are you sure?", and it's not unreasonable for people to question if there's something that you might have overlooked. That's not to question your integrity, or your reliability as a witness, it's simple, standard scientific skepticism. If you get a bizarre or unexpected result :-
    1. check your equipment.
    2. check your methodology. In this case that means asking questions like, could I be confused over the identity of the father (both in terms of is the fish I think is the father actually the father, and am I 100% confident that the father is the fish I think he is?) Could I have overlooked albinos in his previous spawns?, could I have inadvertently have introduced the albino from a different tank on a piece of equipment, etc. etc.
    3. check your statistics. The answer to the question, "Every time I toss this coin it comes down heads, why?", will depend on the answer to the question, "how many times have you tossed it?"
    4. Try to replicate the result. In this case the result you need to replicate is getting no albinos, or a very low percentage of albinos with this male in future spawns with an albino, or het. albino partner.
    5. design experiments to investigate the phenomenon further.

    Many years ago when I first got into angel breeding, I had a spawn, and as they developed I noticed amongst them one very different looking individual. I got very excited, I lavished extra care on this one, special fish until, when it was about a month old it started to look rather like a smokey. At that point I remembered that there was a smokey pair in the tank prior to the introduction of the parents of the batch in question, and that the new pair had spawned almost as soon as they were introduced, suddenly I realised my cherished new mutation was actually, merely, the sole survivor from a different batch.

    It would be a shame if and others felt unwilling to post, for fear that they might be unduly criticised, questioning is not criticism. For comparison, take a look at my Blue-ming puzzling thread on TAFII. I think you'll find that I was subjected to similar line of questioning to you, yet there's nothing in that thread that I take as personal criticism, or that I feel is unjustified. Those were the self same questions I was asking myself.
    Blessed are the cheesemakers!

  7. #17
    I agree, 100%. I ran the first three steps through my mind immediately as I questioned what I found before me. I then went back to my records to reassure myself. I'm into step 4 with the current mate to ensure no albinos will show up, then yet again with another mate that is het for albino. I know through my records of previous spawns from the male that no albino gene is carried. That is backed by several sibling spawns as well. No albinos through two previous generations in the Blue Zebra line has ever dropped. That does not preclude the possibility of an error being made on my part. Double integrity will not satisfy that fact beyond a shadow of a doubt. It needs to be triple, quadruple checked, along with abundant, solid photographic evidence supporting my notes on physical observation. Every event along the way requires documentation. No question can be left unanswered.

    I think what set me back was this comment by Steve, "I suspect something is not right. The chances of an albino mutation are 1 in I
    don't know how many millions. So unlikely, that my instinct is to look for another explanation. A mutation is in the realm of possibility, but I doubt it very much."

    A rather firm conviction of doubt, which indicated to me that he believes my observations should not be taken seriously. From his perspective, I understand that now. It does not fit with his past experience, therefore it must be wrong, or at the very least, highly questionable. Can't fault a person for that, everyone has a right to their opinion. But it sent a clear message to the readers that put my observations under question. Having nothing to offer in the way of irrefutable evidence left me feeling as though I had been tried and convicted, post haste.

    At this point all I can do is satisfy myself. I have no pictures of the pair laying the eggs from which the albino hatched. All I can provide in the future is pictures of "A" male fish spawning with "A" female fish, which could be interpreted as any fish by detractors, not proof of the actual pair from which the albino dropped. There has been too much doubt cast on the matter, for which I have nothing to counter with.

    I already know what the results will be, but I will plug forward with the exercises to satisfy myself.

  8. #18
    Steve had the same comments about Ken and the first PB's.....not kind at all....comes off as if he didn't see it, it couldn't have happened......just keep doin' what your doin'...;-)
    He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which.
    - Douglas Adams

  9. #19
    Oh my. Sorry to hear your questioning how you came up with a single albino when sharing your thoughts weren't met well on the other site. I hope my statements didn't make you feel the same way Dan. It happens to me all the time when something unexpected occurs within the spawn in question. Just like my Blue Zebra male. Never once got a Gold offspring even when paired with females known to carry the gold gene; yet I now am getting Golds and Platinum types when paired with the current female.

    It is always human nature to be skeptical. Things occur logically and in an expected pattern 99.99% of the time; however, you never know when you've hit on that 0.01%. As already stated above, we run into mutations all the time, but the outcome is often genetic defects that lead to a short life or to our culling.

    I for one will be interested in hearing about your experience raising this unusual little guy and hopefully breeding him/her in the future.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by catsma_97504 View Post
    I hope my statements didn't make you feel the same way Dan.
    Not at all, questions reflect interest and curiosity. That should be expected, especially when something unusual is placed before them. But when people decide to not take into account a witnesses view of the incident, or cast serious doubt on what they are reporting, say that they can't be right then proceed to tell them why they can't be right, including hypothetical reasons for an event they have not witnessed themselves, that shows complete disrespect for the individual doing the reporting. In a forum setting, doing so sets the stage for future readers, especially if the individual casting the doubt is one of stature. It reflects an opinion that the person should not be believed.
    It would seem appropriate to seek to understand first what it is that the witness has reported, give weight to what that individual reports rather than ignore it or discount it completely. Asking questions that might give the individual a different perspective is ok, that is being helpful. Telling them that something can't be right or say that you doubt it very much is not helpful at all, it is judgmental.
    I should provide an example, sometimes I feel as if I am not expressing myself well in a forum setting. I will use the above quote as an example of how I feel it would have been beneficial to the conversation.

    "I suspect something is not right."
    "What I'm hearing does seem very strange, if we can discuss it further, maybe if I ask a few more questions."

    "The chances of an albino mutation are 1 in I don't know how many millions. So unlikely, that my instinct is to look for another explanation."
    " Do you have more observations or additional information in the fishes lineage? The event you are describing is a very rare one, maybe as it is explored further you will uncover more clues."

    "A mutation is in the realm of possibility, but I doubt it very much."
    "As Rob suggested, additional crosses could perhaps reveal some additional verification. I can't find an answer for you right now, once you make some further observations maybe we can revisit it then."

    Anyway, I've moved on. It really matters very little, other than the fact that I took the low road and allowed myself to respond in a manner that I am not accustomed to, that I will have to live with.
    By the way, if the fish makes it, I've decided to call it Juanina Milyon.
    Last edited by Danburns; 05-19-2015 at 06:55 AM. Reason: clarification


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts