Bulgarian Green

[catsma_97504]

There is also the presence of the Dark gene. According to Raiko's information the parents were D/+ bg/bg with wild Manacupuru blood. If memory serves me correctly the parents were F2s.

[Danburns]

I see, so a pairing of D/+ - bg/bg will produce the pure +/+ - bg/bg (Bulgarian Green Silver??), one generation away is not too bad. It is still a delay though.

[catsma_97504]

Yes, a delay of 1 generation. And as the presence of the Dark gene is easily identified when young, it shouldn't be a problem. I just need to figure out which Manacupuru crosses are male.

[Danburns]

Hopefully they will let you know when they are accepted by the female. Spawning Done Naturally, lol. It would even be better if the best male and female paired up on their own. This scenario rarely works in my tanks.

[terrapins]

I agree. The Manacupurus represent the pure form Bulgarian Green. +/+ - bg/bg. Unless Raiko specifically stated that there are other genes at work, the fish would be considered genetically pure as the Manacupurus have no domestic mutations in their lineage. This is assuming that even though bg/bg came from domestics with other mutations, Raiko performed crosses to wild angels to isolate the Bulgarian Green gene.

The question is is do solid black fins automatically occur or does it require in-breeding then line breeding to get un-striated 100% black in a lineage of Raiko's fish that was outcrossed. Furthermore, does the feature arise out of a synergy between various genes? If it does, crossing it with a wild-type may strip it into its constituent genes which in turn will require more generations to get the feature back.

A good example of this is outcrossing an ultra-high color coverage Koi with a wild-type will produce goldmarble ghosts. Re-combining the stripeless recessive into double dose will require 2 generations subsequent to the initial F0 cross and another 2 to 3 to get color coverage, color-depth, and color hue to the ideal phenotypic characteristics. In otherwords, even after you get the Koi genotype back in the second generation, the phenotypic features will not automatically occur in their ideal form unless you specifically put in major selection effort to bring those features back.

[Danburns]

The question is is do solid black fins automatically occur or does it require in-breeding then line breeding to get un-striated 100% black in a lineage of Raiko's fish that was outcrossed.

I suspect the black fins come from the dark gene. I'm not keyed in on what has been showing up in tanks of those breeding them so I could be wrong on that suspicion.

[catsma_97504]

I suspect the black fins come from the dark gene. I'm not keyed in on what has been showing up in tanks of those breeding them so I could be wrong on that suspicion.

You are correct Dan. A straight bg/bg fish is a light green based on the photos and videos Raiko has shared.

[terrapins]

So there's a difference between a bulgarian green and a bulgarian seal point; I thought they were the same.

[Pterophyllum]

Bulgarian green is the gene bg.
Bulgarian seal point is a phenotype, D/* - bg/bg

* can be +, g or Gm.

some combinations of D/* - bg/bg can show faint or strong black banding, for example D/D - bg/bg which tend to have a dirty brown appearance with slightly faded black bands. Despite my description, I think these are rather attractive.

The original "BSP's" were D/g - S/+ - bg/bg or D/Gm - S/+ - bg/bg. I suspect D/+ - S/+ - bg/bg will look very similar.

[catsma_97504]

There is much confusion over phenotypes and genetics where these fish are concerned.

While Raiko has stated a D/+ bg/bg is a BSP, he has also indicated this genetic combo will not hold the dark fin coloration. This is in conflict with the required dark fin and light body per Raiko's description of how his new gene affects phenotype expression with the Dark gene.

Further he has stated that a D/D bg/bg would hold the dark finage and he calls them "True BSP". However, his original photos indicate that when the term Seal Point was suggested those fish were genetically D/g S/+ bg/bg or D/Gm S/+ bg/bg. There is no mention of the Stripeless gene in recent discussions on the bg gene or BSP phenotype expression.

This is very confusing to refer to the phenotypes as BSP or True BSP. And is leading to some heated discussions.

Another point of conflict is with the "New Platinum" as this fish does not carry the gold gene required for labeling as a Platinum type. With the fish I have the "New Platinum" types appear to be light green body with blue fins. However, prior to maturity they did look much like a platinum in coloration.

Through the gene study we will hopefully be able to replicate Raiko's work. Unfortunately he has not been willing to share any information on their detailed history or his breeding records which could help to get the gene accepted. Therefore we will need multiple breeders collecting breeding documentation to submit to the Standards Committee to accurately document and replicate results for acceptance.