Platinum (gg pbpb)

[TasV]

Hello from Tasmania, Australia

I was looking through the body of the website for genetic information about platinum angels (one of my favourites on one that I have an opportunity to acquire) and have not been able to find anything on them (from here: http://www.theangelfishsociety.org/p.../NewIndex.html). Looking at another website it mentions that platinum angels are gg pbpb. I can find information here about gold, but not pb. Is this a recognised mutation and if so which locus does it 'sit' on? Can anyone expand on this colour variety and its breeding? I was assuming stripeless was in there too but looking on that further showed it resulted in paraiba sunsets.

[catsma_97504]

Welcome TasV.

We are currently working on adding the new phenotypes that utilize the Philippine Blue genes; but have not published any as yet.

To answer your question about Platinum, yes the genetic code is g/g pb/pb. This will produce a solid platinum white colored fish. As the gold genes suppress the dark pigmentation/stripes the Stripeless allele is not required, same as with a Gold (g/g) angelfish. Paraiba requires 2 Stripeless and 2 Philippine Blue alleles (S/S pb/pb); and if 1 Stripeless exists then it would be known as a Ghost. But, since Gold (g/g) suppresses the stripes/dark pigments you'd never know if a single Stripeless allele existed in a Platinum angelfish.

The studies on the Philippine Blue gene have shown it sits on its own locus and is recessive; however, some crossings with +/pb display some blue coloration in the fins.

Hope that answers your questions. If not, or if there are new questions, please ask. We are happy to help.

[TasV]

We are currently working on adding the new phenotypes that utilize the Philippine Blue genes; but have not published any as yet.

Thank you! You guys do a magnificent job. The best of any animal related association/society/club that I am have seen with regard to helping people understand things quickly and academically with a wealth of relevant publications to support your material. I love that! I am a high school science teacher with training in biochemistry and genetics so to see this kind of support material is exactly what I want to see.

BTW.. The Tas in my name does not, at this point, have anything to do with The Angelfish Society. It is a standard moniker I use have been using online for the past 8-9 years that is a reference to where I live in Tasmania.

I am interested in, among other things, the Philippine Blue gene and have been trying to acquire stock that I think will help to explore this colour variant nicely. This is difficult to do in Tasmania! So far I have black marbles that are either M/M M/Gm, or M/g to try for some blue marbles. I'm actually guessing M/g as some of the other fry in the same batch in the breeder's growout tanks were gold and I didn't see many other phenotypes around but I'll have to test-mate to see. I guess that will also work nicely with the platinums to also develop a line of golds. Ideally I think I'd like them to be M/+ instead of M/anything else to allow more of the blue to come through. I also have a smokey ghost (which I am hoping is hiding +), but am not sure how to use this one yet. It is really lovely and maybe blue ghosts down the track might be nice but I haven't given it much thought yet. I really love blue silvers but have not found a supply of nice silvers and I think because this is the wild-type phenotype, I am very fussy about the quality of the silvers... if that makes any sense at all.. probably not (though am fussy about quality of all types really).

Thanks, again, for the welcome. You guys do an amazing job!

[Damonc]

TasV welcome to the forum!

I have bred a lot of fish with the Philippine Blue gene and know how it interacts with all the other genes very well.

What questions do you have?

[TasV]

It's the smokey ghost I am not sure about. He/She appears to be S/+, Sm/+, V/+ and TBH I am not a fan of veils or super-veils unless they carry their fins really well and have balance. This one seems to be quite good so far, carrying its fins nicely, but it is young with a lot of growing to do yet and all that might change as its fins grow out. It's fins were a bit beaten up in the LFS but they are making a good comeback (it was a rescue fish... one of those fish you walk past in an LFS and feel sorry for and bring them home to give more rooms, tlc, and fatten them up some), and it is surprising me with how nice he is beginning to look. I think it can make a positive contribution to some breeding down the line but I'm not sure how. I was thinking maybe blue smokey ghosts might be nice... but as I said have not given it the thought I have with the marbles... the marbles were an intentional purchase but this guy was an impulse buy.

[Mugwump]

Welcome Tas.......good questions...it sounds like you enjoy angels like the rest of us here. Ask away if you have further questions, we'll d out best to discuss and answer them....

[TasV]

Thank you for all your welcomes. It has been about 6-7 years since I kept and bred any angels but I'm getting back into them; partly out of interest but also out of necessity. My wife suffers from a degenerative joint disease which is gradually disintegrating her joints and causing her a lot of pain and my kids are growing up fast and beginning to move out of home and plan their own lives. I can see a day in the not-to-distant future when I will need to care for her more than I do now to do day-to-day tasks and a need to gain more time to maintain our small farm. I am university trained in genetics and biochemistry and have been teaching high school science for over 20 years and I am now trying to work out what I can do that will allow me to work from home, still earn an income, and be able to provide the care my wife will need as the condition progresses. I have been breeding cichlids since I was 10 years old and one thing I know how to do is raise and look after fish and genetics is easy for me to pick up quickly... so I have decided to setup a commercial angelfish hatchery to supply wholesale angels to lfs around the country. This allows me to pursue my interest in angels, genetics and breeding, improve and develop my own lines, and at the same time work from home. It will be a gradual transition over the next few years so I will be focusing on collecting stock, developing resources, and making a firm business plan that will end up being viable and at the same time challenge me intellectually.

I'm exhausted this morning as I've been cleaning out the 10m x 10m shed I have that I will be insulating and turning into the phase one of the hatchery and have been cleaning out a 1000L tank that we will be installing as our water change/top-up water (one of two that we will connect together so we have 2000L of water change water at any one time). So for now I am going to be blowing out the cobwebs and relearning everything so that I can make a good solid plan and focus on getting good stock. I have my first 4x20 gallon bank of tanks in the shed waiting to be cleaned up, drilled and plumbed and couple of big 4x2x2 stock tanks to house multiple individuals of each variety so things are slowly taking shape. I make my own tanks so I'll add more banks of 4 x 20 as I get racks built over the next few years. I have joined here to learn from you guys about the standards the society has established because I think this is a good foundation upon which to base a commercial breeding enterprise, too.

So fun times ahead

[Mugwump]

Good luck with your new venture. I'm sure you'll do fine, especially as you're giving yourself plenty of time to do it wisely. How is your local water?....

[TasV]

My water is top quality and free. We live in a bush area and there is a spring here that flows all year round. It comes out of the ground into a dam on a neighbor's property and then flows down through our back paddock as a creek. So, we pump out of it to irrigate the gardens but I have also been using it for the past 8 years or so for my fish tanks with great success. I use both filtered and unfiltered water for my tanks. The tougher Sth American cichlids in the shed get unfiltered water and, touch wood *taps head*, they have done fine in it so far, breeding all the time. The angels I have so far are in the house so their water is our whole-of-house water that is filtered through a 5 micron sediment filter, a carbon filter, and a large 75W UV steriliser to improve its potability. The water comes out about neutral and with a low tds. Luckily I don't need to worry about chlorine or other such chemicals in the water and tank cycling is quick and easy as I keep a tank specifically for setting up new tanks with a stack of filter sponges in it that can be installed into new tanks to avoid cycling altogether. I also use these filter sponges as a food source for newly hatched fry. I just pull them out and place them uncleaned into tanks and the fry settle onto them and graze the surface of the filter sponge. Heating is going to be the challenge as we live in Tasmania where winters are very cold. At the moment I am thinking of setting up reverse cycle air-conditioning to heat the room instead of heating individual tanks. The shed is already partly insulated but I think I will re-clad it and install thicker wool-based insulation into the wall cavity and make the peaked ceiling flat so there is less air to heat.

[TasV]

This is the little rescued smokey ghost I was talking about. Starting to come good and fattening up on excess amazonarum fry. Had it for a a bit over a week now and the fins are starting to heal nicely. Can someone confirm it actually is a smokey ghost? I ordered the little platinums yesterday (expensive little things they are) and I was thinking they might go ok with this one, genders lining up of course...