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Thread: Panda Ghost genetics

  1. #71
    TAS Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
    Yes, the phenotype name is more commonly used. The genotype name however belongs in the 'Genetic Calculator'......I'm not in agreement to dumbing it down for the majority. If anyone wants to just use the phenotype name(s) in their conversations....fine.....but the genotype name is what it is, and we need a source where it can be readily available to those that seek it.
    When we do crosses of new gene submitted, we are after the genetics..........the phenotype names comes later....right?

    Damon, as an example....when you were first learning about angelfish genetics....where did you start?.....the 'genetic calculator' is one of the first tools that hobbyists turn to for guidance.....then you associate the phenotype names to what the angel actually is genetically........these associations are a major part of the learning experience....
    I used a calculator that is no longer available online and there were only two things I looked at. That being the gene code and phenotype name because thats what everyone used, not the genotype name. I bought a lot of new Philippine Blues and Pinoys from Carol. She didnt call them by there genotype name. I loved the Pinoy Clowns and wanted to make a bunch of them so I paired two of them thinking I would get a bunch of Pinoy Clowns and when all these other fish popped out my journey to understand the genetics began. When asking questions to all the good breeders at that time none of them used the genotype name, they always used common phenotype names. Because of this I only looked at the gene code D/+ -S/Z - pb/pb and phenotype expected results. Honestly I really don't know one person who uses the genotype names in conversation, forums or face book groups.

    Just to clarify I am in support of having all three (code, genotype and phenotype) in a calculator to appeal to everyone.

  2. #72
    there was a breeder over 25 years ago producing panda a type of gold marble or gold marble Koi blushing I think he was in Mich they were advertised in in the tropical fish hobbyists in the classifieds I have a picture of them in storage. Time frame was about 1990. Same time Frame Steve Rybicki was getting into the wild crosses. thats why I asked was it a new strain as I know I have seen the blushing type before.

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Damonc View Post
    Just to clarify I am in support of having all three (code, genotype and phenotype) in a calculator to appeal to everyone.
    Ditto. The calculator would then be a learning/reference tool that would benefit a greater number of users. jmho

  4. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Damonc View Post
    Just to clarify I am in support of having all three (code, genotype and phenotype) in a calculator to appeal to everyone.
    Great! So there's just one issue left - uniformity of usage. Your group needs to decide on the use of the word MARBLE in phenotype. Whichever route you take, it has to be applied uniformly to all strains where applicable. This is all I'm after. To review just in case it got lost in translation (I may have added to the confusion by not having been specific with the gene combinations; my apologies for that):

    Will MARBLE in a phenotype name be used to indicate a marblized appearance regardless of the gene combination causing it or will it stand only for the gene combination causing the expression and thus only in the presence of M/+, M/M, or M/Gm (conversely, in their absence, marbling phenotypes caused by Gm/+, Gm/g, Gm/Gm will therefore not merit MARBLE)?


    This is key because of its significant precedent usage in our phenotype library where genotype and phenotype names are one and the same and in use since our founding a decade and a half ago and even goes further back beyond the boundaries of TAS to the time Norton wrote her article on the topic in 1988. It is also in keeping with one of your group's new/revised rules on naming which states:

    "b. A major or significant mutation will be given the name used by the person who originally discovered the new gene so long as the name does not cause confusion with the existing names of freshwater angelfish genotypes and phenotypes."

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Francis View Post
    I agree that all the previous calculators had both the genetic and phenotype shown, you just clicked over, there was a tab on the top to be able to switch from phenotype to genotype. If anyone has the old calculator you can see how it is set up. I still use the old TAS calculator on occasion. I know the names of the phenotypes anyways and it is no biggy just to add the pb/pb prefix or suffix to the phenotype that pops up.

    I know lots of work has been done to make a new calculator and don't know all the challenges that could prevent this from being done to the new one.

    I have not seen the final new TAS calculator. I assumed it would do the same in the final product
    I use the old one too and just substitute a gene whose characteristics are the same. Since I'm fairly new to pb, I use our website version to check phenotype names. I look forward to the day when I won't have to use both!
    Last edited by terrapins; 10-16-2015 at 01:05 AM.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrapins View Post
    Great! So there's just one issue left - uniformity of usage. Your group needs to decide on the use of the word MARBLE in phenotype. Whichever route you take, it has to be applied uniformly to all strains where applicable. This is all I'm after. To review just in case it got lost in translation (I may have added to the confusion by not having been specific with the gene combinations; my apologies for that):

    Will MARBLE in a phenotype name be used to indicate a marblized appearance regardless of the gene combination causing it or will it stand only for the gene combination causing the expression and thus only in the presence of M/+, M/M, or M/Gm (conversely, in their absence, marbling phenotypes caused by Gm/+, Gm/g, Gm/Gm will therefore not merit MARBLE)?


    This is key because of its significant precedent usage in our phenotype library where genotype and phenotype names are one and the same and in use since our founding a decade and a half ago and even goes further back beyond the boundaries of TAS to the time Norton wrote her article on the topic in 1988. It is also in keeping with one of your group's new/revised rules on naming which states:

    "b. A major or significant mutation will be given the name used by the person who originally discovered the new gene so long as the name does not cause confusion with the existing names of freshwater angelfish genotypes and phenotypes."
    In my opinion...... YES!

    in regards to "Phenotype" naming the term Marble should be used to describe what te eye sees regardless if it comes from M or Gm. What the eye sees is a random marble pattern that varies from fish to fish. It is important to remember that TAS does not govern phenotype names. We simply supply known common or phenotype names for educational purposes. Now in regards to the genotype name it is very important to use the proper source of the marbling, that being M or Gm.

    Example
    Phenotype = Platinum Marble
    Genotype name = Philippine Blue Gold Marble Gold or Philippine Blue Gold Marble DD
    Phenotype = Blue Marble
    Genotype name = Philippine Blue Marble


    This whole thing started over the platinum marble I believe. This phenotype name in my opinion is exactly what the eye sees. If we are going to say that we can't call it a platinum marble because it doesnt get the marble from the M gene but rather the Gm gene thats just crazy. That logic would then dictate that we go back and change the name of a regular gold marble to something else as well. Now we can't very well go back and change the name thats been in use for all these years now can we?! So since we can't go backwards we move forward from where we are today.

    We take a Gold and add a double dose of blue and you get a platinum.
    We take a Gold Marble and add a double dose of blue and you get a platinum marble.
    All very good phenotype names and very discriptive of what the eye sees, more so than a clown or a leopard. In my opinion a clown looks more like a leopard due to the spots and I would have called a leopard a lace because thats what the eye sees.

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