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Thread: Panda Ghost genetics

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
    That is wrong.....
    Yes it is and it must be fixed. Probably an oversight.
    Last edited by terrapins; 10-07-2015 at 08:13 PM.

  2. #32
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    Hmmmmmm ........

    Just jumped in on this thread and everyone is making some valid points. With that being said there is a lot that we must consider in regards to names and the calculator. It was not that long ago that I was a newbie and did not understand genetics at all. I thought you crossed two clowns and you got a whole lot of clowns. When that first spawn happened and there were all these other fish I was like WTH. That was when I started to educate myself using an online calculator (Paul's I believe). If that calculator only had the gene code and genotype name I would have been totally lost because I did not know that a gold marble blushing was the same as a Koi. The calculator should be developed to help both the seasoned breeder and novice hobbyist. I am to the point now that all I want is the gene code, I can work out the phenotypes and percentages in my head for most crosses. So along that line I think it would be a bit redundant to have both the gene code and genotype name. Anyone who knows the genes doesnt need the genotype name. Taking all skill levels into consideration I think that showing the gene code, genotype name and known phenotype name/names would be best for everyone.

    Now in regards to a Genotype of (Gm/g or Gm/Gm - pb/pb) I think the genotype name could be DD Gold marble Blue and a Phenotype name of Platinum Marble. With a phenotype name you should do your best to accurately describe what the eye sees, not regurgitate the genotpye name agian. In regards to this genotype the eye sees a platinum base color with black marbling (plat marble). If you add any other descriptors to the name you just create confusion. Blue Gold marble woud create confusion as there isnt any gold or much blue at all. When I was developing the spreadsheet that Ted refered to I was working closely with Ken Kennedy to indentify phenotype names and Platinum Marble was what he wanted. being the original discoverer of the gene he has this right in my opinion providedd it does not create confusion with exsisting geno/phenotype names.

    We (standards committee) are taking up this effort again and I will be finishing my work with the spreadsheet. The ulimate goal is to create a database that anyone can follow and understand what the gene code, geneotype and phenotype names are for any given fish. Yes we will include phenotype names for educational purposes which is one of our goals.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Damonc View Post
    Taking all skill levels into consideration I think that showing the gene code, genotype name and known phenotype name/names would be best for everyone.
    I couldn't agree more. I see it as a huge benefit to the newcomer or novice breeder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Damonc View Post
    We (standards committee) are taking up this effort again and I will be finishing my work with the spreadsheet. The ulimate goal is to create a database that anyone can follow and understand what the gene code, geneotype and phenotype names are for any given fish. Yes we will include phenotype names for educational purposes which is one of our goals.
    It sounds like it will be an exceptional educational tool for all.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Damonc View Post
    Hmmmmmm ........

    Just jumped in on this thread and everyone is making some valid points. With that being said there is a lot that we must consider in regards to names and the calculator. It was not that long ago that I was a newbie and did not understand genetics at all. I thought you crossed two clowns and you got a whole lot of clowns. When that first spawn happened and there were all these other fish I was like WTH. That was when I started to educate myself using an online calculator (Paul's I believe). If that calculator only had the gene code and genotype name I would have been totally lost because I did not know that a gold marble blushing was the same as a Koi. The calculator should be developed to help both the seasoned breeder and novice hobbyist. I am to the point now that all I want is the gene code, I can work out the phenotypes and percentages in my head for most crosses. So along that line I think it would be a bit redundant to have both the gene code and genotype name. Anyone who knows the genes doesnt need the genotype name. Taking all skill levels into consideration I think that showing the gene code, genotype name and known phenotype name/names would be best for everyone.

    Now in regards to a Genotype of (Gm/g or Gm/Gm - pb/pb) I think the genotype name could be DD Gold marble Blue and a Phenotype name of Platinum Marble. With a phenotype name you should do your best to accurately describe what the eye sees, not regurgitate the genotpye name agian. In regards to this genotype the eye sees a platinum base color with black marbling (plat marble). If you add any other descriptors to the name you just create confusion. Blue Gold marble woud create confusion as there isnt any gold or much blue at all. When I was developing the spreadsheet that Ted refered to I was working closely with Ken Kennedy to indentify phenotype names and Platinum Marble was what he wanted. being the original discoverer of the gene he has this right in my opinion providedd it does not create confusion with exsisting geno/phenotype names.

    We (standards committee) are taking up this effort again and I will be finishing my work with the spreadsheet. The ulimate goal is to create a database that anyone can follow and understand what the gene code, geneotype and phenotype names are for any given fish. Yes we will include phenotype names for educational purposes which is one of our goals.

    Broadening the whole scope of the calculator makes sense.....
    but we must stay true to TAS and make sure the genotype names are there.......
    While we can only state the preferred phenotype naming, aided by the gene submitter, the genetics are our primary mission.

    plus you cannot have a 'Plat Marble'......the g/g needed for the plat eliminates any possibility of a 'marble' because they are both on the same loci.....
    Last edited by Mugwump; 10-09-2015 at 06:23 AM.
    Jon
    He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which.
    - Douglas Adams

    http://www.mugwump-fish-world.com/index.php

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
    plus you cannot have a 'Plat Marble'......the g/g needed for the plat eliminates any possibility of a 'marble' because they are both on the same loci.....
    Jon just to clarify, when a call it a Plat Marble I am referring to the Phenotype name, Genotype name is still open ended and something that the standards committe needs to work on.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Damonc View Post
    Jon just to clarify, when a call it a Plat Marble I am referring to the Phenotype name, Genotype name is still open ended and something that the standards committe needs to work on.
    Damon, I understand, but calling it a 'Plat Marble' is a misnomer and can be confusing too......?? it just seems that we need to be more descriptive, creative??....somehow....
    Jon
    He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which.
    - Douglas Adams

    http://www.mugwump-fish-world.com/index.php

  7. #37
    I'm not a member of TAS, and I don't use genetics calculators,because, like Damon...
    I can work out the phenotypes and percentages in my head for most crosses.
    so to some extent my opinion is irrelevant, but the three most common questions the average angelfish owner asks are :-

    1. What are the genetics of this fish?
    2. What will these two produce?
    3. How do I make a ______ (insert phenotype name)?

    IMO the ideal genetics calculator would be able to answer those three questions. To that end, again IMO, inclusion of the phenotype name is vital if it's to be any use to someone with limited knowledge of angelfish genetics.
    Blessed are the cheesemakers!

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Pterophyllum View Post
    I'm not a member of TAS, and I don't use genetics calculators,because, like Damon...

    so to some extent my opinion is irrelevant, but the three most common questions the average angelfish owner asks are :-

    1. What are the genetics of this fish?
    2. What will these two produce?
    3. How do I make a ______ (insert phenotype name)?

    IMO the ideal genetics calculator would be able to answer those three questions. To that end, again IMO, inclusion of the phenotype name is vital if it's to be any use to someone with limited knowledge of angelfish genetics.

    Yes, I can agree with that...but it must be an accurate descriptor....and the genotype name should be included also....
    Jon
    He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which.
    - Douglas Adams

    http://www.mugwump-fish-world.com/index.php

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Damonc View Post
    .....and Platinum Marble was what he wanted.
    The word Marble is a noun that stands for a very specific trait and has been in use for more than three decades; as such, it cannot be used as an arbitrary phenotypic descriptor. Since phenotype names are descriptors that are either fully derived from a phenotype (what it looks like) or partially derived from its genotype in conjunction with its phenotypic configuration, if you want to include the word marble to describe it without the consequence of confusion, there are options - use its adjective form - "marbled" OR "marblized;" i.e. Marbled Platinum or Marblized Platinum. You may not use Platinum Marble since "Marble" is a reserved word that has a distinct genotypic meaning.

    In analogy, if you have a very long veil tail, you cannot use the noun superveil in its phenotypic name if you know full well that its genetics does not include 2 doses of veil. Understanding angelfish genetics is difficult enough when you're new to it, we don't want to complicate it further by calling something by something it is not.

    Case in point, we're having this discussion because someone decided to use a name that's inconsistent with the fish in the picture (Panda Ghost) and no one caught it until this thread came about. That picture or its name must be removed or renamed.

    Lastly, I suggest moving further naming issues discussions to a new thread since it its full scope is outside that of this current thread.

    BTW. Thank you Rob for you input; it is practical and very relevant.
    Last edited by terrapins; 10-09-2015 at 08:48 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pterophyllum View Post
    I'm not a member of TAS, and I don't use genetics calculators,because, like Damon...

    so to some extent my opinion is irrelevant, but the three most common questions the average angelfish owner asks are :-

    1. What are the genetics of this fish?
    2. What will these two produce?
    3. How do I make a ______ (insert phenotype name)?

    IMO the ideal genetics calculator would be able to answer those three questions. To that end, again IMO, inclusion of the phenotype name is vital if it's to be any use to someone with limited knowledge of angelfish genetics.
    I couldn't agree more!

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